Midcoast Morning: The State of Local Journalism Pt. 2

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Transcript:

[Episode Intro]
[00:00:00] Lauryn Mackenzie: Hello and welcome to Midcoast Morning, CHLY's current affairs show. I'm Laura McKenzie. With the launch of this program, we are setting out to understand the state of local journalism today, in a two part series. What's changed over the last decade? It's also an industry that's seen declining ad revenues resulting in shrinking newsrooms both local and national.
[00:00:24] In part one, we spoke with The Discourse's Julie Chadwick in studio and Lauren Kaljur over the phone to discuss their background as journalists and their observations over the last decade in local journalism and how they ended up working with The Discourse. Today in part two, we will touch on what it's like to run an independent media company and hear their thoughts on Bill C 18, the Online News act for a little bit of background on Bill C 18, the Online News Act according to the federal government, today most Canadians get their news online, social media being one of the go-to ways people keep up to date on news.
[00:00:54] They also reported that in 2022, online advertising in Canada accounted for $14 billion in revenue, which two of the biggest social media companies receiving around 80% of it. That is, Google and Meta. This is a big shift from a decade ago when ad revenues were flipped in the opposite direction towards traditional media that produced journalism.
[00:01:13] To correct this, the federal government introduced Bill C-18, the Online News Act, requiring tech giants such as Meta and Google to pay Canadian media companies for the content they link to and preview on their platform. The act received royal assent in parliament on June 22nd of this year and is planned to go into effect no later than 180 days after that date.
[00:01:31] In response, Meta, the parent company of Facebook, Facebook and Instagram announced on the same day they would block Canadian and international news content on Facebook and Instagram for all Canadian users. Google has also stated they will follow suit and block Canadian news links on its search engine once the bill comes into effect at the end of this year.
[00:01:47] The effect of news being blocked is already being felt now, as Facebook and Instagram no longer show posts from Canadian and international news media on user feeds. The pages of news organizations have now also been blocked. This leaves Canadians who normally get their news from the two social media sites in the dark.
[00:02:03] CHLY has been affected by this, and now even though CHLY does more than news, we are blocked. And our listeners are unable to be updated on what's going on, on air or at the station. So with that, let's jump into part two of our interview.
[Interview Start]
[00:02:19] Lauryn Mackenzie: What is the biggest struggle working at an independent media outlet?
[00:02:24] Julie Chadwick: Hmm, biggest struggle. I guess like the newest one we've all been talking about is the Bill C-18 stuff and the ability to get stuff out there that is like outside of, like we're, we're moving from an old way of, of distributing things, let's say through like a paper, newspaper or whatever, a print product, um, to finding other ways to get it out there. And it's of course different a little bit with radio, but in some ways it feels like we're just adapting and getting on top of how to, how to navigate that, like sort of the, the blow, or I don't know if it was a blow, but like the, the huge change that the social media brought, um, and then this is kind of happening.
[00:03:03] So yeah, But then again, though, I think that, like, we already had a model of, um, where I think a lot of things were moving, which is the whole, like, sort of newsletter and email model and, and you see things like Substack, like, a lot of things were really moving in that direction anyway. And so we were fortunate enough to sort of already be in that place.
[00:03:24] Um, and I think, like I was saying, we already have with small teams. And with a lot of good communication, like, we, we do have a lot of flexibility to be able to immediately respond to that. And even just for me, like, sharing stuff online, like, people are already sending me things like, oh, here, use this news proxy thing to share stories, and... so there's already ways that people are getting around it. So I think I turned that story into actually like what is positive [Laugh]. Um, yeah, I would say like, obviously, like, like anyone, um, like being a smaller kind of startup type thing, funding is definitely an issue. Um, I'd love to have a larger team. Um, I'd love to have really steady, guaranteed funding that we didn't have to think about.
[00:04:12] I would like to see, you know, less of our efforts have to go towards that because say someone like, like Lauren, who's, who's doing audience engagement and a lot of other things like Lauren is a, a super incredible journalist and editor. And so I wouldn't say her efforts are wasted on that, but we're definitely like sometimes stretched a little thin trying to do all things. So I've thought a lot about the different kind of models. That could work to deal with the funding issue, which I think is what everyone would probably say, you know, is the issue when you're in independent media, and I think some form of, like, government funding is, would be a good idea in terms of, like, seeing it as something like healthcare education, like, ą funding for media and having ways in which it didn't become just like a propaganda arm of the government.
[00:05:07] But I don't see the CBC model as being that bad. Um, you know, and, and that's something that could be worked with to make better. But, um, yeah, I, I would say like, you know, obviously fundraising is probably the biggest challenge.
[00:05:21] Lauren Kaljur: Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, I, I really feel genuinely hopeful, like, about this moment.
[00:05:28] I think I have a bit of a different, uh, different vantage point because, uh, Erin Miller, who, who, as I said, co-founded the Discourse back in 2014, she actually went off to found, uh, with her sister. A another organization called a Indiegraf, which supports independent publishers across Canada and the U.S.
[00:05:47] Uh, they found it actually just with the pandemic in 2020, and they've since helped hundreds of outlets launch, which are basically just, you know, usually a single journalist that identifies a gap in a community, um, like a fee for closure. And has the skill set to be able to start, uh, essentially producing their work.
[00:06:08] And so Indiegraph steps in with support with the business side. So, generating audience revenue and sponsorships. Um, and then also with, uh, web development, which are kind of two of the areas that journalists tend to find the hardest time with. We're really good at writing stories, but we're less, less good at, uh, the business and tech side.
[00:06:26] So, uh, yeah, I, I, it's, it's... Uh, so exciting again and again to see these outlets being founded. Not all of them are successful, but a lot of them are. When you look at the numbers across Canada, I believe Lion Publishers, uh, uh, which is also an organization that supports independent publishers. They just released a report and so since 20, uh, 2008, 474 local news outlets have closed across Canada, but, uh, 217 local news outlets have, have launched and like almost half of those are independently owned. So there's a lot, a lot, a lot happening. And it's, um, it's really exciting. And part of the reason why, um, it is so feasible is just because, uh, the, like the barrier to entry to kind of launch and do your own thing is so low.
[00:07:13] You know, we have female services service providers, um, like MailChimp or, you know, and like, even just kind of creating website is. Yeah. It doesn't have to be super expensive. So if you have someone like Julie, Julie Chadwick in the community, who's super well connected, extremely skilled, and very well valued in the community, that's kind of like an ideal situation to be able to just support them to do the work.
[00:07:40] And, um, yeah, that's what, uh, that's what I'm really passionate about. And it's, um, I absolutely see that as the future of journalism.
[00:07:48] Julie Chadwick: It's also fortunate with these startup type things that if you like journalism, like it really is super fun to do like, you know, it's like if we had to be fundraising for some boring thing, it might be a little bit more difficult. But I think with a lot of the start up type things, it's sort of like. Yeah. Like, yeah, I'll get in there and try to make this happen because, like, just fortunately a lot of, a lot of, um, journalists are really enthusiastic about doing the work, so that helps as well. Like, yeah, and you can actually get something off the ground with, with, basically a small team of super dedicated people.
[00:08:26] So that's really cool.
[00:08:28] Lauren Kaljur: Yeah. And I think, um, the other component is the bright spot in terms of the business model for journalism is really turning and really kind of a campus radio type situation where we're inviting people to contribute and donate and collectively. You know, every person contributing what they can, you know, five to ten dollars a month or whatever they can afford together, those funds can create enough to support the journalism.
[00:08:50] So I think what's, uh, really also great about it is, shout out to all the Discourse supporters, your, your money is directly going to the journalists. We're able to do things technology wise, uh, very efficiently. So really the bulk of the money is actually just going directly to support your journalists to do the work and, like, report for you.
[00:09:08] Uh, you know, some of the some of the criticism and mistrust that we see of media, especially in CBC I think sometimes it's because it's like this big bureaucracy and people are questioning how the money's being spent and allocated whereas with this independent model It's really like your journalist working, you're paying their wages and you're supporting them to work for you. And it's very much more of like a direct line. I think it builds more trust and respect and understanding of journalism, which ultimately we all benefit from that too.
[00:09:36] Julie Chadwick: Your money's not going to some, to some rich CEO's second yacht.
[00:09:42] Lauren Kaljur: Absolutely not, no.
[00:09:46] Lauryn Mackenzie: Bill C-18 is all about funding media companies big and small. If the Online News Act was successful, would the Discourse receive any funding from it?
[00:09:54] Lauren Kaljur: Yeah, so I think, um, there's a lot of open, unanswered questions about this right now. Uh, so, Discourse is part of a, um, independent association, an association of independent journalists called, uh, Press Forward, and, uh, Brandi Schier, who is Discourse Community Publishing CEO. So our CEO is actually the co chair of that organization, and they've been working very, very hard to make sure the voice of independent digital media is being heard in this conversation. I'm not privy to all the conversations, but I do know that on the whole, um, the voices of the bigger, uh, legacy media and lobbyists and organizations have been kind of the loudest in the room, and so I think the main concern from independent digital publishers is that, uh, when it comes to dollars and cents, that they're actually not going to see a whole lot from it, and that concern is actually coming from how it played out in Australia.
[00:10:50] Already been research that's shown that the smaller players, the independent players are just not benefiting in the same way as the larger ones. That's actively happening in the background. And I, again, I don't know, um, all of those conversations that are happening, but I do know that, uh, Press Forward is working hard to make sure that.
[00:11:07] Independent publishers, um, uh, do see some benefit from this, however it plays out. And certainly that the flip side of, like, the blowback, we're trying to also lessen the impact from that. For, for us, we, uh, have traditionally seen about, like, 30 percent of our traffic from, uh, Meta, from Facebook and Instagram and so that's definitely, uh, a hit. It's unfortunate. And the bigger concern for us is actually Google, uh, so, like, most of our, because we do a lot of explainers, a lot of, a lot of reporting that's directly responsive to community questions, that means that people are Googling, uh, questions that they, and they find are reporting through Google, so, uh, we're definitely watching that, and, uh, hopeful that these conversations pan out in a way that, um, put a closure to this, uh, challenging time.
[00:11:52] Lauryn Mackenzie: Are there better options for the federal government to help local media?
[00:11:56] Julie Chadwick: I, I can't speak in depth about it, but I do think that Local Journalism Initiative has, like, seemed to be a really successful program. I've seen a lot of, I've been hired as a freelancer, like, I did some stuff for Windspeaker through that initiative.
[00:12:10] Um, I see, like, you guys have gotten funding from it. Us and, um, IndigiNews have been able to hire reporters through it, so, um, I don't know how long that could last or what all of the different mechanics of it are, but that to me, that seemed like a pretty good, a pretty good start, at least.
[00:12:26] Lauren Kaljur: Yeah, I mean, I think that, again, it's kind of a similar story in that, um, the voices of independent digital publishers have been, like, a little bit left out of the conversation with LJI.
[00:12:36] It's still kind of structured around supporting journalists in a more traditional, like, uh, print media setting. So, for instance, the quotas, quotas that they require of, um, of journalists to produce stories each week are not relevant to a publication like us where we're doing like more long form investigative features.
[00:12:53] So there's stuff like that. That could be just like a bit more responsive to the type of work that we're doing. But certainly, uh, yeah, we're we're super grateful for that support. It's huge because obviously most of our budget goes toward paying journalists and it's a way to actually hire journalists. So we're thrilled about that.
[00:13:13] The good thing about the Bill C-18 and the Online News Act and how it's affected social media is, like, Facebook in particular is already super problematic in terms of the types of conversations that happen there. You know, we've used it because it's definitely a good way to get the word out and, like, get people, um, viewing the stories that we put so much energy into creating.
[00:13:34] Um, but at the same time, the conversations are not healthy. There's a lot of misinformation. Very polarizing. I see that the future is really kind of like being less reliant on those places and really bringing it back to more in person conversations. And so for the holding more events where we can kind of like, you know, circle together and discuss the store, the stories and the reporting game insights and story tips from community members, um, you know, showing up to.
[00:14:02] Farmer's markets and local events. So we can just be a bit more present in community again, just like we, what's most important for us is really just making sure that we are letting people know that the discourse exists, that people can subscribe to our newsletter. And that newsletter is really kind of our most direct connection to the community. So people that, um, subscribe, they're hearing directly from Julie each week. Uh, they're getting tons of, uh, you know, like, uh news and events and as well as kind of behind the scenes of the original reporting that we do. So that's where I really see the future is more of that kind of direct conversation and being hopefully less reliant on the more toxic, um, online spaces, uh, and, and actually getting, getting people in the room together for, to have some real conversation.
[00:14:51] Jesse Woodward: Midcoast Morning is made possible by the Community Radio Fund of Canada's Radiometers Fund and listeners like you. Support Midcoast Morning and CHLY's non- profit news department today by becoming a sustaining donor at chly.ca/donate. Local news can't survive without your support.
[00:15:13] Lauryn Mackenzie: How do you see the future of local journalism evolving, and what do you think the industry needs to do to remain relevant and reliable?
[00:15:20] Julie Chadwick: I think one of the things that, that sort of gives me hope in a way, and not in a, in a naive way, but like I think the thing about local journalism is you can't, if you want to look at it like a product, which I hate, I kind of hate doing, but there is no other product, like the Nanaimo news is, is an original product that will never, like, you can't really, um, it's always going to be desired as though people are always going to want local news.
[00:15:48] So. In my opinion, I feel like that's always going to be something that is necessary. We just have to find ways in which we can do that. And there's definitely better ways and less reliable ways to deliver that to people. Um, but yeah, the public funding model is hopeful because people can directly participate in what they want to see, which I think is, is kind of empowering. Yeah, and this idea of like not waiting around to do things in the way that we've always done them, that gives me hope as well. Like just sort of like, hey, we're gonna, we're gonna move on and do this and we're gonna do it in our own way.
[00:16:24] Lauren Kaljur: Yeah, also like we defined broadly, you know, it's not I think for a long time. Um, journalism was just a thing that people received and it was kind of taken for granted. And we're in this moment where I think as a community, we're realizing, oh, wow, like if we want, uh, quality journalism, we really do need to like, make sure it happens and the cool thing about kind of these, um, new models where their audience supported is that literally that's it. You pitch in to support it and you're making an impact. And again and again, we hear from supporters who are just like, just so grateful for the work and they support. Each month because of that, and so I think it's just, it's just reminding people that like, yeah, things are pretty, pretty bleak and sometimes like, you know, seeing your paper close and seeing news coverage change in your community is pretty devastating. At the same time, like, we can change it. It's just a matter of putting some money toward it together, what we can afford. And, um, yeah, that, that reporting is, is there.
[00:17:28] Julie Chadwick: Yeah, the death of old things is also creates gaps for new things, right? Like that's, that's definitely where I feel like we're, what we're running with is like, okay, so some of these things have faltered and died, but how can we, how can we fill that in and do new things?
[00:17:42] Lauryn Mackenzie: Any advice for a startup nonprofit newsroom?
[00:17:45] Lauren Kaljur: Oh gosh. Um, I think that, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, it's been a super exciting, uh, career like working. I, you know, I, I, I've seen, um, Like the Discourse is kind of we we reshifted focus into local news, kind of identifying that as a gap. And that was because we kind of realized that the initial way that Discourse was kind of set up around more broad, more like province wide, regional reporters was just like, not was not working out as a model.
[00:18:18] So I think like being able to, yeah, just not get discouraged, like keep trying. There's no playbook for this. Like we're figuring things out. Um, it's, uh, it's an amazing community of like resilient entrepreneurs who have had to really, uh, be super scrappy is the word that's often thrown around. And I think it's the perfect word to use because we're doing a lot with very, very little and constantly trying to innovative, be innovative and find, um, new ways to do things. So, yeah, I'm really grateful to like, I would say just having that, um, that the willingness to just be bold to experiment and not be afraid of failure is like the number one thing because the failures happen all the time. But it's, uh like how you take that information and learn from it. Um, yeah, and I think like for us just thinking through as as Julie was talking like, um, I think work workplace culture is super super key, because uh, yeah, it is a tough industry. The burnout rate is really high You do see a lot of people that move away, but I think that's also, a product of like the the newsroom environment that people are working in so we're really focused on doing our best To like, uh, be supportive of each other to create a workplace culture where we are like really encouraging and give ourselves space to, to fail, but also pick each other up.
[00:19:42] And, uh, I think that is, um, yeah, that's what, that's what has kept me going in this, in this industry. And I think that, uh, I would love to see more of that across other, uh, and other newsrooms is just like, you know, making sure we're putting that energy into creating a healthy and encouraging work environment for, for people, because it can be tough, you know. Not only the working under with with limited resources is always tough, but the nature of the work can also be pretty tough, you know, having like really difficult conversations, tackling really divisive polarizing issues.
[00:20:15] And in some cases, you know, like we have a reporter who's working on, um, some freedom convoy reporting. It's a very, you know, very serious, um, safety issues involved in doing that kind of reporting as, as journalists are being more targeted online. Doxxing, whatnot. So there's some very real risks and impacts to the work and so, yeah, I would say put the energy into into the actual workplace culture and it will pay off.
[00:20:43] Julie Chadwick: I think having a lot of like for a startup, um, definitely at least having one person in the group that's starting that has a ton of local connections that is like pretty, I don't know if the word's embedded or what, but, um, someone who knows all the different contacts and who to talk to and will know a lot of people in the community is definitely helpful.
[00:21:07] I'm more and more, um, like a, a big believer in the power of local media and, and having those connections and people being in the community, living in the community, knowing it, knowing the history. Um, I just did a story on, on Brian Stovall, who's one of the local music teachers. He's in his eighties now and, you know, he, he taught Diana Krall and all that kind of stuff. And, and he was kind of saying that you know, he was reiterating some of the, of the things like, you know, from the 60s and 70s when he was first teaching and saying, oh, like naming different people. And he's like, I guess nobody even knows those people anymore.
[00:21:48] And, and I was just thinking how, how important to, to talk to somebody like him and to know the history. For example, he remembers when there was like string music programs at the elementary level. And so he, people like that can really be the holders of so much knowledge in the community of of how things used to be or how things could be. And yeah, so having a lot of that hyper local connection is really good. It's obviously like something that can be developed as well, but I think if you know if if I were to give advice to anyone wanting to start a newsroom, that would probably be one of the things. I think like when we started in Nanaimo, one of the things that I was only kind of peripherally involved in, but I thought was really cool, was because I think when they were, when the Discourse was first starting here, there wasn't, they didn't have anyone local until they sort of got some local freelancers, but what they did was, like, the people that were there at the time, a whole bunch of surveying of local residents. So I think it was between 700 and 800 people were, like, residents were surveyed. And I thought that was really smart because then it was essentially like a bunch of questions like, you know, what kind of, what do you want to see here, what are issues that really matter to you, and then a lot of those were all kind of extrapolated through different, um, data sets to figure out you know, what some of the most prominent issues were and then some of their initial first stories, which I was participating in were based on the results of that survey. And yeah, it was really smart because it just engaged people right away. Uh, it, it was very responsive and it, it just started the whole community conversation off on a really good foot.
[00:23:39] That was one of the things, and then also some of the risks with like citizen led or do it yourself kind of media is definitely having someone on staff that's really dedicated to the editorial side. So not just having a bunch of reporters running around sticking microphones in people's faces, but also, you absolutely have to have someone who is keeping things in check. And again, you can start things with a pretty small team. Maybe even two people, which is pretty much what we have in Nanaimo at the moment. Like having someone like Lauren, like honestly, I wouldn't probably have stayed with the Discourse if the, if the editing and the fact checking wasn't so super top notch and though at times it can be like slightly challenging because I'm like, oh my God, it's going to take me another week to like go through all this and like get the right things or read through this report or whatever. But that's really, really crucial. Because once you start kind of going down the road of, of doing things like, um, you know, we see it a fair bit, and I wondered if C-18 would affect this, but the sort of aggregate media where they're just, like, things are just sort of being gathered elsewhere and, like, it's just not, it's not healthy, and it, and it very quickly, you know, it might get you, you might get popular quick, but it'll very quickly get you into a place of not being trusted. And once you have that, I mean, honestly, journalism is so much about like reliability and responsibility. And once you're mistrusted by your own community, like that's it. You're not really going to be, you can't really get that back. It's not, it's not easy. So yeah, that's the other piece I would say is at least have someone experienced on your staff that is really like willing to challenge the reporters on keeping their crap together.
[00:25:30] Lauryn Mackenzie: Julianne Lauren. Where can people find you?
[00:25:32] Lauren Kaljur: Yeah. Yeah. So the discourse.ca, you'll see, um, if you go, uh, yeah, forward dash (slash) Nanaimo, then that's just our Nanaimo coverage, but you can see our telecom coverage there as well. And, uh, the, the way to subscribe to our newsletters is super prominent on the website. So you won't have any issues finding those. And, um, yeah, certainly just get in touch, uh, with me anytime, uh, you can, uh, you can reach me at lauren@thediscourse.ca. I'd love to, uh, yeah, hear your thoughts on anything we've talked about or, uh, yeah, just if you have story ideas or communities that you want to see the Discourse go to, please, uh, let us know, we're always, uh, we're always looking to, um, explore new ways to, uh, offer this public service to folks.
[00:26:16] Julie Chadwick: Yeah, no, it's easy to remember. All of our emails are just our first name at thediscourse.ca, so mine's just julie@thediscourse.ca.
[Credits]
[00:26:23] Lauryn Mackenzie: That's the end of our two part series on the state of local journalism.
[00:26:27] If you want to listen to part one of our series, you can listen to the podcast edition at chly.ca/midcoastmorning, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find more information about the Discourse and where to sign up for the newsletter at thediscourse.ca. You can sign up for CHLY's newsletter at chly.ca/subscribe for updates from our news department and more.
[00:26:47] Thank you to Julie Chadwick and Lauren Kaljur for coming in and speaking to me.
[00:26:51] I'm Laura McKenzie, host and producer of Midcoast Morning. Jesse Woodward is our executive producer, and Arbie Fru is our technical advisor. Our theme song is First One by local Nanaimo band Waste Management. You can find more of their music on their Bandcamp. Support local artists by buying their music.
[00:27:06] If you have a story you would like us to cover, email us at news@chly.ca.
[00:27:11] Jesse Woodward: Midcoast Morning would not be possible without funding from the Community Radio Fund of Canada's Radiometers program and listeners like you. Midcoast Morning is a project of CHLY's non-profit news department. Support non profit journalism in Nanaimo and on the Salish Sea by making a donation at CHLY.ca/donate.
[00:27:31] This podcast acknowledges and gives thanks to the Snuneymuxw First Nation as we broadcast and podcast from their traditional territory.
[00:27:39] Thanks for listening.